League of Legends

Cloudtemplar’s thoughts on LCK after MSC

LeagueofLegends7 - Cloudtemplar's thoughts on LCK after MSC

Some context:

-CloudTemplar predicted LCK to win MSC however he thinks LPL is a better region than LCK  

-IG is the aggressive LPL team that everyone associates LPL with however IG is the only team playing that aggressive anymore in LPL. LPL  

-In general, LPL has been playing slower than before.  

-He watched every single LPL, LEC game(not sure about LCS).


  1. LCK and LPL are not that different. It's not misreading meta or different play styles.LCK was simply outclassed.  

  2. LPL is the defender of the title while LCK is now the underdog/challenger.  

  3. LPL went through a lot to get the result today. LCK might have to go through the same process to win.  

  4. Cloudtemplar's chatbox was very toxic while he was streaming this hopefully this won't happen here?

translated from:

Aftermath of MSC

I think there are still some fans who think LCK would win everything like before. But to be honest ever since 2018 LCK has been the challenger and not the defender. LCK has to learn from their mistakes and they no longer have the privilege of being the defender.

We can do it VS There is no Hope

This is something I am struggling with. I still think there was a chance for LCK to win but am I being biased? Looking at the result it seems LCK doesn't have a chance but I still think LCK could've won… Looking at the games, not even just the result, LCK have difficulties in the group stage and well in quarterfinal they were slaughtered, so it is leaning toward there is no hope…


Five Stages of Grief

LCK have been losing since 2018. I think when it happened many people thought it was normal/natural. No team could stay dominant forever so losing once was thought to be something that ought to happen eventually. Some also think it is a fluke and some also blamed the meta. The meta at that time was Le Blanc, Galio, and to be honest, LCK wasn't able to play the champions very well. The reason why I said Le Blanc and Galio is because the mid-gap was the most obvious at that World. I am not saying that top, bot, jungle was good but that mid difference stood out most to me.


So at first we thought losing was inevitable, it was a fluke, and that we misread the meta. In 2019 we said that LCK is too stubborn, too conservative, too reactive. In another word LCK was playing "we win if we don't make mistake" when they have to take risks. LCK was mostly compared to G2. "Why are we keep playing the same champions? Why can't LCK flex champion? Why are LCK always the one following and not innovating?" I agree with this and I think LCK was too focused on ourselves and not the opponent. Instead of forcing the opponent to make mistakes we play so that we can win if we don't make mistakes. In other word we were playing to not lose while other are playing to win. It's like we are focus on patching our wounds instead of making opponents bleed.


Okay we got it. We want to be creative in our champion picks, be more aggressive, and we got everything else down. Now everything it's okay, right?


The Difference Between LPL and LCK

To be honest, there wasn't a big difference between LCK and LPL. It's not like LPL use champion in a different way, champion meta wasn't very different, the playstyle wasn't very different either(IG is an odd case). What is heartbreaking is that LPL now has what was used to be LCK's biggest strength: Macro. People who watch LPL and the casters have mentioned this but there are many times where LPL is very similar to LCK. If you take out IG LPL have been more LCK like than before. I am not saying this as a bad thing. LPL now are choosing their fights more carefully, fight decisively when they have to, fighting with a purpose, and minimizing unnecessary risk all the while showing player's talent in skirmish and team fight. Some are going to say that by saying LPL is more LCK like before means I am biased and that I still think LCK is better. What I am trying to say is that LPL has adopted LCK's strength and make it their own. LPL is no longer the region that fights randomly


Overall they are similar but there are still some differences. For example people are questioning why LCK are favoring Kalista over Ez and the lack of usage of Varus and Wu kong. However unlike before the difference in champion meta isn't that big. I don't think this can be the reason why LCK lost but one of the reasons. We didn't lose because we picked kalista over ez I think in-game plays are the reason we lost.

So Why Did LCK Lost?

Okay so the regions are similar so why did LCK lost? So we had a blind pick format and if it was ez vs Kalista we could say which pick is stronger however in a game where two varus are picked then the player that are better varus player would win. One thing LPL is better than LCK is their fighting ability/mechanic. Their varus is just better than our varus. Similar champion pick, similar playstyle, similar usage of champion but different player.  

Tempo/Speed Difference

Some people watching would notice that the LPL's speed of the game are faster than LCK. Although the direction of the region are similar the way to get there are different. LPL have more "events" than LCK.  

Now some might be wondering why LCK couldn't play like that. Imagine yourself as LCK either as a player, a team, or as a coach. What is our biggest strength as a region? It would be our Macro. People often describe fighting against LCK like being slowly choked out and this is our playstyle/strength. This influence our champion picks, our laning phase philosophy, and how we approach the game in general. Let's say our Macro skill is at 95. Then let's says our team fighting ability(mechanic) being able to 1v1, 2v2, 3v3, and etc. is at 80. Now a lot of players/coaches started leaving LCK. Regardless of their skill level or intention they were able to bring that Macro knowledge to other region elvating their Macro.


It is going to be too long if we talked all other region so let's talk about LPL for now. LPL's macro level was honestly at 70 but now it went up to 90. And their fighting ability was already better than LCK and it went from 80 to now 95. Because they kept their fighting playstyle for so long all of their player are now better at fighting than other regions. Because of this the LPL players are more used to taking risky and are more open to fight.


How about LCK's growth? From what I can tell LCK have been trying their best to make their 95 macro to 97, 98 while their other skill needed more improvent and their time could've been more efficient.


The Macro Gap is closed

Another thing is that the effectiveness of Macro have diminished. 1. Other region could macro to a similar level now. 2. Patches have also made Macro less effective. Numerous patches have diminish the power of Macro and Riot have always been saying "Go fight, make game fun, have shorter game time." One of the reasons why League of Legend are still one of the most popular video game is the ever-evolving gameplay. So I understand why they have to make these changes but still, it has hurt LCK.  

There is another thing. Guys, do you think there are more Macro options when you are behind or when you are ahead? When you are ahead of course. If the enemy is at your inhibitor what macro option do you have that is not "lose less?" What I am trying to say is that there are less Macro options when you are behind. When you are behind you really have only two options: Either turtle then go all in on one fight or drag it out. This is same for every team. When you are behind how can you go 1-3-1? You have nothing when you are behind.


This and many things make it hard to win solely on Macro alone.

Going Back to When You are LCK Example

So you are LCK and you want to fight, be decisive, creative, and aggressive. However, your body(mind) won't listen. If you do this right now the result won't come out. I am not saying teams don't do this because they don't want to be flamed. Every team gets flamed when they are not doing well this is not an LCK special.  

Let's be specific. Let's say there is an opportunity to fight where you usually don't fight but then you are told to fight. Your player instincts are telling you not to fight but they tell you to fight and that it is good to fight but the risk is huge. It is hard to overcome this.


Or you can take the less risky option which is to play standard. This way you are getting the best result your team can generate right now. Of course the result is limited to LCK only. Let's say you are a team owner which option would you choose? It would not be an easy decision. I am not saying LCK shouldn't change but this is the reality/dilemma teams are facing. "No, we can't change this right now. We wouldn't get good result. We might relegated and I might never get picked up by another team." I wonder how many people could emphasize with this. I hope this would make people understand why it is so difficult to change.



Hearing this I hope people understand that change need time. How many years did LPL team fight every day to reach this level of skirmish? I think it is difficult for LCK to catch up so quickly. It has been 2 or 3 years since LCK has been catching up? I can't tell the future so I am not sure when LCK can fully catchup or even if they can at all but all I know is that change needs time.


Skirmish Timing Gap

When I watch the games LPL clearly fought more than LCK. When LCK would wait till dragon or at dragon when LPL would fight at LCK's prepare stage. They fight one timeline faster than LCK. "why are they fighting now? Why not just wait till objective?" LPL get flamed for mindless fight but I think they are seeing something that we don't. For example, our 1-3-1 format used to destroy teams but now they just break mid so it is hard to use right now.


What is the most important part of a skirmish? Initiation. Because of LPL's fighting playstyle, everyone learned how to initiate while in LCK the initiation is more of a designated role. For example, in LCK let's say it is Ornn vs Malphite. Often time it is almost like a stage play where Ornn goes Toot Toot while Malphite goes BRRRRRRR and fight start. But in LPL Syndra might engage, Lee sin might engage, thresh might engage it is hard to know who is going engage and how they are going to engage.


This is something that is apparent in MSC but LPL's support are crazy good at engaging. Jungler too are insane. And this is my own opinion but I think Mid and Bot's skill was very similar. This kind of feels pathetic like "We might lost the war but we are better at this than you HAHHAAH" but I think mid/bot were equal. I won't say our mid/bot are better but that they are quite similar. But support/jungle and top there was a big difference and I have said this before MSC too. Their champion pool, being able to create favorable situations, able to play weak-side or carry,… they are just better overall.


Another thing is that there isn't a super team anymore. There is no team in LCK where everyone is at S tier. They all have weakness and it takes time for them to grow. Some who heard this would say "LCK had a super team before but they still didn't do good." or "Why is LCK always farming exp why don't they go play WOW(Maplestory) instead." I mean what can we do? We just need more time. Do I think when the time comes we would win? I don't think so since other teams are also learning but I think LCK would fair better.


LPL Growth

Did you think LPL suddenly got better? It might seem this way that LPL got suddenly better in 2018. But there were a time where LPL kept losing. When they lost after overhauling their system, building academies, and investing in their infrastructure. They didn't see the result for a while but still kept on improving their infrastructure. This is similar to learning a language where it is not a gradual increase but more like a step by step increase. LPL worked really hard and eventually they met their checkpoint in 2018 and I think this is what happened. They worked hard for many years and suffered a lot for it. It has only been 2 years for us and it is kind of sad that it might go for many more years before we see the result… "Hey, son do you know once upon a time LCK once roamed Worlds finals?" "Hmm wtf are you saying dad LCK can't even escape group."


Non-LCK fans

I wonder how much fun it is to be other region's fan right now. They have been losing to LCK for so long now they must be having fun flaming us. It is kind of like seeing your high school bully working in a car wash. It is super sad for us but it must be fun for them. To be fair we did that to them before too.  

Riot Killed LCK?

AHH RIOT KILLED LCK. AHH ITS ALL RIOT'S FAULT. AHH shut up. I don't think it's all Riot's fault. We didn't adapt to the changes so we have to be one blamed not Riot.

Why MSC was a Big Deal

Like I said before we had many excuses before MSC but now that two regions are so similar we have to acknowledge that they are the defender now. LEC is really strong too and to be honest it is basically LEC vs LPL at this point. Here is the thing, is there more money going in LCK right now than before? NO. At one point there was more money in LCK than before. And now that LCK isn't bringing result there is less incentive for org to put more money in.  

And because LPL is now the defender it is now harder to win than before. People often say the attacker needs to be 3x stronger than the defender to win. Before when LCK was the defender we had the privilege to only look at our region and now we have to catch up to LEC/LPL and also play better than them. We have to put in more work than them in order to win.


LCK Questionable Decisions

Let's go back to the game. People have been wondering why they are doing Baron at such a odd time, why they are going Yassou and etc. I think it is because the teams are more pressured. "Ah they are better than us let's take more risk so we can get advantage that way. We can't win with conventional means so let's do something risky." Another reason is that I think they have the mindset of "If we don't lose early we can win."  

Let's be specific. A lot of people have been wondering why Teddy is on Yasou when he is so good on marksman. But first, this is something we all have to admit: Teddy did well on Yasou. He had lane priority, countered Ez, countered enemy team, he snowballed and this is the time where the team use that lead and win the game. But they can't even win the game with that lead. "We can win if we able to use our Macro options. We are good at Macro so as long we don't lose laning phase or even better if we win laning phase we can win." But now even with that lead LCK still can't win.


Most LPL team in LCK?

APK is the most LPL team in LCK. However, after a few seasons I think they would be like most LCK teams. Why? Because they are not giving the result. Not saying that if they play more like LCK they can win more…  

I don't know what is right anymore… This is also what most teams are thinking right now I think. "People tell me to be more creative so I pick nonmarksman bot but then people ask why I didn't pick marksman. People want me to be more aggressive but when that aggressive backfire people ask me why I am playing so aggressive."


Cloudtemplar's Reaction to the Result

Let's address something that I addressed briefly at the beginning. Some of you are very mad about the result but for me, it is more sadness and disappointment. I mean it is not the first time we lost so you shouldn't expect more…


I still think LCK had a chance. What? I can't even say LCK had a chance? It is true that we lost and that LPL is better overall but I think it is going too far to say LCK had no chance of winning. Even when LCK is dominating I still said LEC, LCS, and LPL had a chance of winning. Just because we are the underdog we don't have to undersell ourselves. But it is going to tough for us to win.


Scrim Importance

So a stronger team in a scrim has the privilege of choosing 1. tryhard-> win 2. Whatever ->Lose/Win 3. Experiment -> ?. Scrim result doesn't always show the full picture of a team. I have been in pro play for three years and have seen teams with trash scrim result do really well in the tournament. This is a rough generalization not every teams is like this but in general, LCK teams are much more tryhard than other regions in scrim. LCK often play scrim like a real game and because of this LCK result are much better than other regions even today. Does this mean LCK don't try new stuff in scrims? No, I know for a fact they are trying really hard to try new stuff in their scrims. Why don't they play those at stage. I don't know. Some people is going to say I'm biased saying this but I know for a fact they are trying new stuff in scrims. However, I don't know why they are not using those on stage…



This is going to break a lot of people but I am just going to say this: I think LCK might not better than LPL or LEC but I think they are still better than LCS. I honestly don't know what I am going to do if LCS win against LCK… You can take 1st or 2nd but this 3rd place is ours. C9 is kind of scary though… We will see at World I guess.  

LPL=>G2>LCK>LEC>LCS?(From fan comment)

Nah I don't think so. I don't think G2 is the only strong team in Europe. If we say G2 is the only strong team in Europe they are going to say T1 is the only strong team in LCK. Each region has strong teams besides T1 and G2 respectively.


Oh wow, this is a short one I only talked for like an hour.

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