League of Legends

Full summary of everything that LS and Doublelift discussed on today’s LCS costream

LeagueofLegends4 - Full summary of everything that LS and Doublelift discussed on today's LCS costream

There's a handful of clips on the frontpage right now from the stream and I felt that people would be very interested to read about all the different things that the two talked about on today's stream. Overall it was an incredibly insightful look into how coaching works in NA and just how terrible it is compared to other regions. Really makes NA look completely doomed. Here's where the vod starts if you'd like to watch it for yourself: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/595880253?t=00h13m19s It doesn't get interesting until the beginning of game 2.

  • In game 1 draft they disagreed on who would win with Doublelift predicting Flyquest. Doublelift doesn't put much value in Ornn items like most analysts do. In his analysis he values which carries scale harder.

  • 1:23 into game 1 LS asks Doublelift if he ever does blitz scrims, where you play only the first 10-15 minutes of a game then restart the scrim and do it over and over. Doublelift gets distracted by Leena who's telling him to fix his camera positioning on stream and the question goes unanswered. Not sure if it's because of his short attention span or he's actually trying to dodge the question, but Doublelift changes the subject and asks LS what his real name is and what he thinks of Leena. LS says Leena looked really professional in the TSM facility video. Doublelift apologizes for his autism.

  • LS tries to go back to discussing the actual game. Doublelift admits that he only looks at the game from the perspective of botlane and he thinks the botlane + jungle matchup is in favor of Flyquest.

  • Doublelift asks LS if first dragon or herald is more important. LS says Infernal/Mountain are worth it, but it also matters how many team members you rotate up for the herald. Losing too many waves by rotating up bot lane is not worth. Doublelift completely agrees. 2 waves + plate > herald. Dragon XP also feels good and they agree that XP snowball is feels very good.

  • 9:30 into the game hey agree that Aphelios is really good, but wouldn't be as good in NA if NA botlaners could play mages.

  • Doublelift asks LS what he thinks of players that have beta personalities. LS takes the question more seriously than Doublelift probably intended and says that he thinks players that fail to capitalize on opportunities presented to them aren't necessarily beta, they're just bad. NA players miss opportunities more than any other region. Also admits that LCK and LPL players often rely on mechnical outplays to capitalize on opportunities but says this is not a good thing and that these teams "tighten up" by worlds. Doublelift asks why his team never "tightens up" and asks LS if he thinks he could've helped his team do so. LS says yes, but says that working with NA players on this is difficult because they ignore or don't want to listen to feedback. LS brings up examples of basic fundamentals that NA players don't get like cheater recalls and asks Doublelift if he does it. Doublelift says he calls it better base and that he wins a lot of games by just getting better bases than the opponent. Says NA ADCs don't have a brain and don't think about these things. Says Sneaky is the only player that ever contested him on this.

  • Doublelift talks about how he'd rather play against a team with Mountain/Cloud soul than try and contest them for the soul in a teamfight and lose the game. Kind of unclear if LS agreed. Think he did.

  • 28:00 into the game they talk about various things they thing are strong that don't really get played like Ivern, funnel, and Draven.


  • Game 1 ends. LS talks about how a botlaner expanding his champ pool to include mages is so much more valuable than one who just improves their Aphelios mechanics. Doublelift contests saying how last worlds when Veigar bot was meta he spent tons of time grinding in soloq on veigar and lost a lot of scrims on it not because he was bad at it but also because the entire team has to adapt to playing with a champion that has different flow and power spikes than an adcarry does. Doublelift talks about how when Sona/Taric was OP he failed on the combo in scrims endlessly but demanded his team to keep trying because of how OP it was and it ended up paying off, stating that him and Core were possibly the best players of the combo in the world but it was a growing pain for the entire team and was really hard because of how much time you have to learn these things in an ever evolving game.

  • LS says this is why he asked about blitz games because this is exactly the kind of thing they help with. He says you can get 60 games in a day of just playing the first 10-15 minutes and learning the early/mid game of these new styles. LS says that the whole team being hesitant to learn a new style is indicative of bad infrastructure. Asks why people don't want to learn or grow in their gameplay and stay limited.

  • LS talks about the bad communication problems doublelift has been bringing up recently on his streams. LS says he doesn't like the word "communication". He says in a scenario where Doublelift sees something, but his teammate doesn't that it isn't a communication issue it's a problem with practice. If one player sees something that another player doesn't see after months of practicing together then it means the players aren't on the same page and their practice is worthless. LS talks about bootcamp scrims he does and says he always found it weird how much communication western players need and that they provide a lot of filler info.

  • Doublelift says that you will never have 5 players who will be experts in every single category. He says you need communication to fill in the gaps from player to player and that in an ideal world you don't need communication if everyone is on the same page.

  • LS asks Doublelift if he agrees or disagrees that a jungler should be able to do just cam over to your lane and know for himself, without communication, how to path accordingly. Doublelift says he 100% agrees with the point, but that it's not reality. He says junglers he plays with can't do that and that the laner needs to communicate to the jungler how to path/gank in his experience. LS disagrees that it's far from reality based on his own experiences. He says someone should be making the jungler get to this point. Understanding lane state only requires knowing about minion numbers and how the champions interact and says solo laners do this just fine so why can't junglers do it? Says that Malice on BBQ could do this partially because he plays lanes in solo q. Talks about how players in Korea play multiple roles in solo q. He says that if xmithie and broxah aren't able to judge lane state without input from the players then its a problem outside of the game and it needs to be identified and worked on.

  • Doublelift says that maybe the coach is supposed to help improve these things, but sometimes the coach just doesn't know the answer to these problems. Says communicating in games is sometimes about building habits. LS says its a big problem if the coach doesn't know how to identify these things. He thinks there's a problem in that players are the best coaches. Doublelift points out that this is how G2 does this and asks what LS thinks of G2 where coach is just a facilitator between the players coaching each other. LS says there's a difference between "personality managers" being titled as coaches and strategical coaches. Says that strategical coaches don't really exist and talks about how Riot made coaches a legitimate position and suddenly 200 job positions were open and the coach position was essentially like a 6th player or a manager. The "coaches" don't go and make the effort to learn concepts like lane state and just end up being a facilitator for pros. However, pros have their own biases going into a game and end up having to convince each other to see their viewpoints. Says that for the next generation of players coaches need to be people who go and learn about ALL the roles at a near pro level. Says no one does it because they're lazy or bad.

  • Doublelift agrees that players know more than the coach and that the coach is supposed to bring in an unbiased opinion to look out for what the majority of the team wants and give team direction. It sucks that it doesn't exist.

  • LS asks if Doublelift could get challenger on each of the other four roles. Doublelift says he could do it on NA with his eyes closed, much harder in EUW. LS says over the course of one year his game knowledge would probably improve and he'd be more equipped than any coach. Doublelift says that he thinks coaches are more than that. People aren't robots. Coaching a lot of the time is more about playing therapist than it is about knowing the game. LS concedes that some players have mental issues and its on a coach to identify when a player is feeling anxious or starting to shut down mentally. Doublelift says in at least 40% of the scrims he plays it's VERY obvious that there's at least one player who's on obvious tilt. At least one player will be mic muted and refusing to communicate (later goes on to say that this isn't HIS team that he's talking about). Asks what its like in LCK.

  • LS says that in Korea there are other factors. Not just that the player could get subbed out, but also its just in Korean culture that players are much closer and just go try hard every day. Says that he's seen more reserved players but what Doublelift is talking about is on another level. Doublelift says that he always sees team arguments as something that's done for a greater goal. Everyone wants to win and is still friends outside of the game. Brings up how sometimes you stomp so hard in a scrim that the enemy team will just cancel because of how mentally damaging it is for a team to get stomped. Says TL might've done this against C9 (later retracts this statement). No one wants to scrim C9 because its too demoralizing and that they're being punished for being too good while in Korea every team would want to scrim C9. Says that American mentality is really bad and LS agrees that after 20 years of esports this is pretty much confirmed and this happens in every game where Americans are afraid to get shit on in practice.

  • They actually start talking about the game again. We're 3 minutes into game 2. LS talks about Ornn's build and talks about Aatrox freezing the lane. Doublelift says not to talk about freezing in NA. He's about to say something about someone here, but cuts himself off (he said "dude I swear to god my- oh nevermind. You know what? I'm not going to say it. Nevermind).

  • LS asks why Doublelift thinks people don't freeze. Doublelift says he doesn't understand why freezing is so taboo and it doesn't make sense to him. Says the answer players often have for why they don't freeze is "cuz its really hard". Doublelift will then ask them why its hard and the answer will be "well you don't even know if the midlaner can get doved and then its just game over so you can't freeze".

  • They start talking about the game again here. EG draft sucks. FLY draft is good.

  • Doublelift asks LS if he's ever been his fanboy. LS says he thought Doublelift really disliked him because he gave in interview once in 2015 when LS wasn't well known where he scoffed at the idea of LS coaching him. Apparently when that happened LS freaked out and went to Sky thinking that Doublelift had just destroyed his career. Doublelift (in a very awkward way…) apologizes. LS says no big deal and that he's forgiven.

  • Which leads to Doublelift asking him about Forgiven (LOL). Asks if LS thinks he'll ever come back. LS says that him and Forgiven were always good friends. He tried to give up his salary twice for him to join a team. Says Alphadraft offered Apdo 50k/month for a team with LS, Apdo, Forgiven in 2016 that didn't happen. Another team, Ever8 Winners, with Kiin Malrang, Septed (idk who this is?), and Forgiven turned down the offer because he didn't know any of the players.

  • Doublelift said there was a time where he had a Korean girlfriend and he got an offer from SKT sister team (not the faker one). They talk a little more about Forgiven and how there's more to the story than whats known publicly.

  • LS asks if Doublelift would ever play in a region that's not NA. Doublelift says not anymore but at one point he wanted to go to China.

  • They try to talk about the game again, but Doublelift says that none of their viewers are here for the game anymore, they're here for the talkshow. Doublelift ropes Leena into the discord here as well.

  • Doublelift has already forgotten LS' name is Nick and calls him Chris.

  • Doublelift goes to the bathroom. Leena offers to clear up any rumors or answer any questions about TSM that LS or his chat might have. (Injecting MY opinion here) Seems like she has something she wanted to get off her chat since there has been some rumor talks about TSM and there are some people who get lots of views that have been saying stuff about TSM. LS doesn't really keep any tabs on rumor mill talks though so this doesn't really go anywhere. He brings up the most recent rumor of TSM trying to get Doublelift's contract from TL. Doublelift comes back right at this point and changes the subject to complain about how there's already a thread on reddit about the "mic muted" bit he'd revealed about 20 minutes earlier and calls reddit stupid because he wasn't talking about his own teammate. Says his team is all veteran players and tilt like that doesn't happen.

  • Doublelift asks LS why he never hangs out with American players. LS says he just doesn't get along with Americans. Says he's very koreanized culturally and that the mindset just conflicts too much. Gets along with Europeans much better.

  • Leena asks LS what he thinks of LCS teams recycling players. LS says he thinks its weird because players skill goes up or down based on what team their on and thinks this is because of infrastructure issues. He says its weird because he's never impressed by academy players or high elo streamers. Says the recylcing of staff was more disgusting.

  • Doublelift asks if LS is saying there's no NA talent, and LS says that's not the case. He brings an example of a 17 year old NA jungler who went to China and hit challenger on the super server and posted on his twitter that he was looking for a team. Doublelift asks for his name and LS says he only knows the in game name. Doublelift comments on the players lack of branding and LS says that too many talents in NA get squashed because of NA politics. Leena asks him to elaborate and LS says players in NA have too much job security and that there's too much nepotism. Leena says a lot of older players have bad mindsets. Doublelift tries to change the subject here but LS brings it back on track. Leena says teams have a hard time picking up unknown players and putting them in an ecosystem to flourish when so many of the establish NA pros have such bad mentalities and there's not enough talent that can push them out of their spots. Leena asks how LS would solve the problem outside of importing.

  • LS says he doesn't know what it means to have bad mentalities because he's worked with Malice and gotten along with Forgiven so he doesn't have much experience with having players that are non agreeable. Leena gives an example of players flaming their teammates in the middle of a match, showing up to practice late or unprepared or showing up to practice hung over (WTF???). Says this is a problem in the league in general and that its not something that happens on her team. LS says he doesn't think there's a good solution here other than looking at the ladder and knowing what to look for in players first person perspectives.

  • Leena says the rookies in soloq come in with good mechanics but when a player comes into academy you have to do a lot of work to get them to LCS level vs other regions where they're already prepared. LS talks about some NA players he knows of that are really good when they come to Korea that aren't well known and offers to DM the info to Leena. Chat starts spamming TSM LS. Leena says they can talk more about it later. LS says that there are a handful of players 17 or 18 that come to Korea and play well but they have no following in NA so they don't know what to do. Criticizes scouting grounds because it's not used properly and the qualification method is BS. He says he knows some players have been given chances behind the scenes but screw over their chances due to attitude issues and he doesn't have a solution because this kind of thing never happens in Korea and China. Says its a problem when players argue with each other and the coach isn't knowledgable enough to discern who's right or wrong and has to go off which player gives the best argument which ends up creating bias and politics within teams. Kind of circles back to the coaching discussion that LS and Doublelift already had.

  • Doublelift is getting pretty burned out with the conversation at this point. Continues trying to detract with jokes but LS and Leena press on with LS heavily criticizing coaches. Again criticizes how 200 coaching jobs popped up overnight and suddenly a bunch of coaches were thrown into titled positions that they don't deserve. It's ridiculous that there are strategical coaches that can't even get out of silver. Expresses frustration with strategical coaches who only are there as facilitators. Says there needs to be a higher standard and that he's talked with many LCS players (offers to give Leena names in confidence) and says its a huge problem when players reach out to him for help instead of their own staff.

  • Doublelift says he thinks they've run out of talkshow material and says he's going to stop streaming now. Doublelift ends the call with LS and says to his stream that he's fine with talking but for him it takes a lot of energy to listen and that LS is very long winded and takes a while to get to his point. Doesn't have an issue with it, but it's not for him and that he still had fun.

  • LS goes on to costream with Dom and for those wondering Doublelift did reach out to him on Discord after the stream to tell him he wasn't upset or anything and that he's willing to do more costreams again.

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