Let me start by saying this is going to be a long, very long post, so turn away ye with short attention spans.
Secondly English is not my native language, so I apologize in advance for mistakes and if things are not as clear as I want them to be, I will be very happy to clarify unclear things, or things where I said different from what I intended.
I do not really have a clear purpose for this post, this is why it will seem very random, it is, it is mostly my opinions about the whole CV issue, some advice how to play against, and hopefully to start a proper discussion about the whole thing.
I also understand that there will be many down-votes and that the top few comments will be very aggressive and negative, it is not my intention to defend the CV mechanic, nor attack it, I will try to be as objective as I can. It is not my fault to insult anyone, or anger anyone. I do understand the frustrations of people. It is not fun to lose. It is not fun to feel like you are helpless, we have enough of that IRL, we do not need it in our games. I will try to argue that if you feel like the game is not fun for you, there are things you can do to mitigate that (other than quiting, or being toxic). I personally find the game enjoyable, as I am a huge RL fan of ships, and everything related to things in the game (including CVs). For me personally difficult and different mechanics are rarely a problem in the game, what I find issue with is usually bad balance and toxic community. (unfortunately WoWs currently has both)
I would like to start a civilized discussion about the state of the game. First of all let me give a bit of my own personal background. I played WoWs casually for bigger part of the year, about 3 years ago. I came back 2 months ago, and have found the community to be overly toxic, even for an online game.
I have most games with cruisers, followed by DD, CV, BBs, respectively. Since I have returned I have played mostly DDs, CVs, Cs, and BBs. I do not consider myself a good player, I am what you would call average. I have always had fondness for CV game-play (pre rework), but that was mostly subjective, as I have found I was able to influence the game the most, as I excel at tactical aspects of most games., and I found the sheer difficulty of mastering something complex with many variables fun (you might guess I am mostly a grand strategy player nowadays outside WoWs) I find the current game-play less fun, as it is much more simplified and arcade (however I do recognize having a game too difficult is bad for business). I have struggled to adapt to playing the new CVs, however I am getting the hang of it.
I have played just a handful of t4 CV games (RN one), mostly t6 and t8, and I have recently acquired the Midway, so my experience is not complete.
What makes me sad is the sheer toxicity I have seen recently in the game (just today I had two games where enemy CVs were sunk by their own DDs, who then refused to move or play the map, shockingly they lost both times, and in one of those I played the CV, got the Kraken and got reported), and especially here on Reddit (I do not visit the forums). Reddit in other games was usually a place which was far less toxic, and many more constructive and civil conversations happen.
I truly feel this community, and especially ingame has become exceedingly toxic, for the sake of toxicity at this point. Which makes me sad for every other player who is not toxic, and even for the devs (I do not agree with WGs corporate policies, but that's a different issue).
The first puzzling thing for me, personally, was coming back and seeing how much less effective CVs were, and yet so many people complained. As I mentioned earlier I consider myself a universal player, I like to play all ships so I can figure out their strengths and weaknesses, and CVs felt much weaker, even after learning new mechanics better.
In no particular order here are some of my observations, opinions, and advice:
– From what I understand somewhere between me stopping the game and before the rework the number of CV players went down due to their sheer difficulty, which was balanced in the rework, and most players are experiencing a much larger number of CV games then before. This is why many players see the game as ruined, as they prefer to play without CVs. This is mostly WGs fault, for having players to learn without 1/4 of the classes.
Let me make one thing perfectly clear. Before the rework, I could single-handedly carry ANY game (unless being heavily outplayed by the enemy CV at start) . In Ranked it was possible to take out the red CV within the first 2 minutes, if their dodge inst perfect, would let me take out the rest one by one, and there was nothing they could do about it, even if they blobbed. If you knew to place a good torp drop cross, even the best of DDs, would, at best, be left with no usable HP. This cannot happen anymore, and I highly support it, as being as dominant was most certainly not fun.
However most people's attitude to that was, suicide, load up another game and hope no CVs. This is most certainly not a healthy behavior.
– Here is the thing. CVs are, were, and will always be a part of this game. Without them it is basically a game of rock, paper, scissors. They add another dimension, which for me makes it more fun, more interactive, and more interesting. You simply can't do the same maneuvers as before and get away with it. The same way when you have a game with or without DDs, Cs, and BBs, you simply can't play the same. You WILL play differently as a BB if there are no DDs in a game, but only Cs and BBs, and when there is 5 on each team. The easy escape of quiting a game and starting a new without (effective) penalty allowed players to ignore parts of the game mechanic they do not like, which is what I meant by saying it is unhealthy.
– I have played online games for as long as there was internet basically, both casually and competitively. Mechanics change, meta changes, much bigger things change than the CV population here. There are dozens of games I have abandoned due to such changes, that I personally did not enjoy. Hell, for me personally snipers are not fun when I play a shooter, and I rarely play them, it's simply not for me. At every change, there will be someone who is unhappy with it. I really hope that this doesn't sound too harsh, but you HAVE to learn to adapt to it. Since it was one of the most popular let me use World of Warcraft as an example. People who have played it know how it was there. Certain classes, or even more visibly specializations, would often go from being unfeasible for years, to being completely OP, both in PVE and PVP. And WoW arguably had the biggest team working on balance in any game ever. It takes time, give WG a chance to balance out a big change like this, it is in their interest to make a game everyone is happy with, they are not a bunch of game designers who sit at work and think of ways to make people unhappy. At the bottom levels they are humans who work with passion to bring things they are passionate about to life, at the top tiers there is always corporate greed, but this is the case with any company (RIP Blizzard). I have also played games enough to know that anyone even suggesting removing a whole class from the game is being delusional, as that will never happen. In fact, that's pretty much the only thing that would make me want to quit a game, as that would set a dangerous descendant of company succumbing too much to the pressure that is not unanimously shared, I am still upset about the whole thing canceling re balance of the premium ships, as community specifically expressed they WANT pay to win options in the game, hell the reason why I loaded up WOT for the first time and said nope, was when I saw premium ammo).
– I believe a huge part of the frustration of people who do not play CVs, comes from the fact that, yes, they add a HUGE mechanic to deal with. Yes, you have to change the game-play from what you are used to, and yes it came very suddenly with the balance of player numbers.
However. As many people have previously noted, you have 3 options
- stop asking for a whole class of ships to be removed and try to adapt.
- quit playing
- keep providing nonconstructive toxic criticism that wont actually help anyone, neither the community, nor the devs, nor yourself (unless you specifically use games as an outlet to deal with IRL issue by being toxic for toxicitys sake, but I believe this is a minority), but will only make this entire place very toxic.
You have, of course, the right to choose any of these 3. (please correct me if you feel like there are more options)
– CVs are stronger, and will always be stronger than some classes in certain things (spotting, damage if allowed). Contrary to popular beliefs CVs actually have the lowest potential DPM of all classes, the reason why they consistently outperform in terms of average dmg, is the fact that they stay alive the longest, as a lot of people even at higher tiers often after deciding the rest of the game isn't fun for them for any reason, or are simply caught in a bad position, or just unlucky. CVs are safest behind lines with long range, and will (if played right) end up the last alive on any team.
DDs will always do less average dmg than a BB, it's part of the game mechanic and game class.BBs will always have less caps than other classes… You get the picture.
– Regarding spotting. I personally find it interesting that people are complaining so much about CV spotting. Nowadays I can only spot one ship, before rework, I could, if I decided to pause dmg, keep the entire enemy team spotted the entire time, by flying just outside the range of their AA at 3-5 different places on the map, but close enough to see them. Except for DDs where I had to fly over, but compared to now their AA was much weaker on average(for some nations, personal opinion, might not be true)
Overall. CVs will ALWAYS have unlimited range, this is the whole point of their class. They WILL always be able to focus one target for as long as they want, however as I will explain later this comes with it's own penalties.
Let's assume you actually are here to stay and keep playing, you have 2 options:
- try to adapt to the different game mechanics
- stubbornly try to ignore it and get increasingly frustrated.
Here is the thing people. You should do in life whatever makes you happy. If a game makes you as unhappy as I've seen some people, you really shouldn't be playing it. Don't keep playing something just because you've already invested some time and money in it, this is the main reason in psychology why many people make bad life altering decisions. Know when to quit. I have also bought things in this game for money, however people should be under no illusion that just because you spent money on a game, the game "owes" you something. You paid for a service, you got the service. I've spent A LOT of money on Blizzard, and I will most likely never play ANY of their games ever again, and I got what I paid for, I don't expect them to show at my doorstep and offer free blowjobs every 6 months. When I rent a football field with my friends I pay money for that 1 hour, I don't expect them to "owe" me anything. It might sound harsh but this is the reality. Unfortunately sometimes we have all invested time and money in things we believed that changed. If it no longer makes you happy, move on.
In the case you do want to keep playing for the end I offer you some genuine advice how to make your games more enjoyable.
Learn how to play against CVs by actually playing CVs (jooooin us).
No, but seriously, the reason why I started to play more CVs than before, was to learn the new mechanic, and in the process, I learned how to play against them.
Drop enough bombs, torpedoes, and rockets, and you will know how to avoid them. I am yet to have a game in the last two weeks where I couldn't properly deal with red CVs, while playing any surface ships (especially DDs). Hell, if you still want to go CV hunting like before (you shouldn't alone in a DD, unless they are BADF), playing CVs will allow you to actually take them on 1v1 early game.
I generally have this rule for every game, and even unrelated to playing CVs, you are much less likely to become a good cruiser player for instance if you only play cruisers, playing DDs and BBs will help you understand their strengths and weaknesses.
– Know the CVs. Other than the premium ones, the 3 current navies all follow patterns, and while this varies from tier to tier, they generally hold true. Know the plane types, and dodge accordingly.
When I played before I had a feeling people would often make the effort to dodge. Now, not so much. It feels most of the time like people just give up. 90% of damage I deal even at highest levels of CV play is because people don't try to dodge, or do so VERY late. You can see planes 10km away (basic), you need to react. Map awareness is additionally emphasized.
Few days ago I had a Furious game where I launched torps at a dodging target, completely missed him (CA), and hit both torps (after traveling their full range) on a red CL going full speed, I wasn't even aiming at, as the guy didn't even try to dodge after 15 sec travel time of those torps). The guy already had 2 kills and was fully zoomed in on getting a BB he was chasing, and then proceeded to say how I ruined the game for him. And report me of course. He could have VERY easily dodged at any point, in his very small, very fast and maneuverable CL.
CVs will punish you much more obvious for bad position, as I said earlier it's just another mechanic. Everyone sails full broadside at t5, but if you do it for a second at t10, you will get sent to the port. Same goes for CVs, look at the map, make sure you are in both good position to take minimal damage from the red team and be able to dodge incoming planes in time (dont lock yourself in positions you cant move from, again same as if any ship could appear)
– Attack bombers. Only the IJN ones do a lot of damage. All those 1/3 of hp and 1/4 of hp you remember (as opposed to hundreds of times where it only took out 1-2k dmg that you dont), happened because of IJN planes, and they are strong for a reason, since their dive bombers are AP and cant dmg light vessels. This is why their rockets do a lot of damage, but cant really penetrate heavy ships properly. The only times I have EVER done 1/3 or 1/4 of someone hp (not counting detonations) is when I line up a PERFECT shot. This means a perfect broadside with a minimal angling after targeting. This can only happen if the person made NO effort to dodge, or had to dodge multiple planes and ships at same time (well I mean then rockets are the lest of your problems). RN and US attack planes even when they line up perfect shots will never hit 1/3 someones hp (unless full rng happens). Also I have noticed a huge amount of people who dont take Survivability Expert on dds. Easier to take 1/3 of 10k hp than 14k hp.
If attack planes are incoming DO NOT show broadside if you are a DD or a CL, they will penetrate you for a lot. Imagine if another DD is shooting at you and position full straight. Also when you play CVS you will learn how much time it actually takes to line up the IJN planes and how easy it is to ruin the shot by going towards the planes not away. Will camo, captain skill, and AA turned off, your air visibility should be less than 3km. If you are going towards the planes its very hard for him to get a shot, unless he can accurately predict your pattern, and you can mess with that by also going left or right, heavy angling attack planes last second brings accuracy WAY down.
Opposite to this if you are CA or DD and your armor can take it, show broadside, as in that case most dmg will come from soft spot and fires, so the planes need to come from front or back. Angle. Again just imagine a DD is shooting at you.
Oh yeah another random tip that I see even t10 players do. DO NOT REPAIR ONE FIRE unless you are about to die, because there will be another instant wave to burn you.
– Dive bombers. Very different by nation. IJN ones are AP (prolly) which means they only can citadel things like German BBS (turtle-back) and Russian CAs and sometimes IJN CAs, everything else is very low rng chance (unless you give them a perfect shot). This is the thing, dont let them come from front or back, it takes a really long time to line up a perfect shot and you see them a while, I can only reliably hit (when I say reliable I mean above 30%, and I'm an average player) citadels if the players dont try to avoid. Play them and see how freaking easy it is to dodge those citadels for most ships. Even very slight left or right during the very long time it takes to get a perfect shot can mean 0 citadels with AP bombers and in that case you really don't need to worry about them.
US ones are arguably quite difficult to avoid, they do good damage and have a high chance to cause fires. Dodging will make a difference though. Its not the same if you take 11k and 2 fires and 2.5k and no fires. OF course there is RNG, but this is the case with everything. RN carpet bombers are REALLY easy to dodge, unless you align a perfect shot you wont get more than 1 or 2 penetrations, and thats very low actual dmg.After playing t4 ,t6, and t8 RN CVs, its almost imposible for their dive bombers to hit me significantly in ANY ship.
– Torpedo bombers. I really dont think I need to explain anyone how to dodge these. Angle towards them, never away use WASD hacks. Sure you may take a hit sometimes but again, its very low actual damage unless you took more than 50% of the salvo, and you really should never be taking those even in super slow bbs. Also make sure to know the torp types being dropped. IJN ones are very fast, and your chances of outrunning them are low, whereas the RN ones are super slow and you can often outrun them, unless placed in front of you, in which case you really should be able to dodge at least one (the other shouldn't do more than 4k dmg on average). In my Experience if you are grouped, I often have to use engine boost to get the shot in and this hugely affects accuracy, if I hit more than 50% of salvo you have done something VERY wrong, or I have made a very rare perfect shot.
Regarding smoke and torpedo bombers. If you go into smoke, and then don't move, you will get hit, but this is even more true when you are in a DD vs DD fight. Move a bit in that smoke, not just front-back, but also left right.
Again this also changes from tier to tier obviously.
Regarding AA and sectors. Many people are saying how flak is very easy to dodge. This is not always true. In my experience it varies from tiers.
t4: Flaks do almost nothing, unless a very heavy blob, and even then you can safely drop at least one load, but if you lose the rest of the planes, you will be out of planes. I assume this curve is meant as a learning curve for both surface ships and CV players, to balance that t4 CVs really don't do enough damage to be a threat when you are in a group.
t6: Flaks can be dodged for the most part, with relative ease, but mid range and short range AAs start to become a problem, especially in groups. One flights through a group of ships will result in losing all the planes, and at this tier this is a huge chunk of your planes, if you do the drop, you most likely cant make another with the same type for a really long time.
t8: Flak becomes a serious issue, when flying through a group even with maximum WASD dodge hacks you will lose most or all of your planes, unless the RNG is really on your side, so it's a gamble, most of the time you have to go for only solo ships.
t10: Flak becomes an absolute monstrosity and there is no way to dodge groups of ships, I have the Midway with all the modules and skills focused on HP, armor and speed of planes and attacking even solo ships is a serious issue most of the time. I am yet to complete a game without being depleted (unless game ends VERY early).
Here is another thing here. If you find your AA to be weak, try investing in modules and captain skills, you will be less effective in other things, but a dead ship cant do anything. I use the C hull on my t7 Mahan, with AA modules and captain skills and I regularly have 20+ plane kills in most games.
Use sectors. Really, this helps more than you can imagine. In most games I win the CV vs CV fight when we start going at each other only because I use sectors and the other CV doesnt. It is huge, even if you dont feel like it is. Also quite important about sectors, if you dont time them well they will be less effective. If you are switching sectors as the planes are dropping you are most likely 10-15 secs too late. Know how much it takes to switch the sectors and start the switch when the planes are that far away from the drop. If a plane is coming from your left, boost the left side the moment you spot the plane (10km away), or even before, most of the time you know from which sides they will come (It's the first thing I do in any game), if your switch takes 10s, start the switch 10s before the planes drop (this takes some time to learn), so that it will happen the moment they fly over you, if you do this, I guarantee you most of them will not be able to make the 2nd drop.
Another thing that makes people feel AA is "useless" is the fact that they get a lot of dmg done and very few plane kills, I saw a change is coming that will give XP for both dmg done and kills, and was honestly surprised this wasnt the case before.
It's very similar to how ship kills work, you can do 100k, 200k per game and get 0 kills, it just means someone else took them most likely.
The part about repairing planes, sure they do repair, but here is the thing. If I take out my t8 squad fly for 2 minutes to get to a location, and then get full yellow planes in 3 secs because I ran into a bad flak, maybe only 2,3 planes died out of 9, but this will force me to send them back, effectively wasting 2 minutes of game time.
Games in WOWs are very short. If I do this 3 times during a game, it doesn't matter if very few of my planes died, those 6 minutes of me not doing anything may very well be the difference between a won and lost game.
I know this has been said many times, but try to stay in groups for the most part it will discourage people from going after you. In a t10 game I do not dare to drop in a group unless I'm willing to sacrifice my entire squad for it.
Staying in group is not only effective to defend you, but will most of the time make the CV ignore you more. This also goes for dodging.
It's all about psychology, if I see a ship actually try to dodge, I most likely will choose a different target next time, as will most players. This buys you a lot of time, since most players dont even try.
The AA is being reworked, as it obviously has its faults, my personal issue with it, is that is quite random, but more importantly really doesn't scale properly to tiers.
This is another issue. Being heavily up tiered by a CV can be frustrating. The opposite is the same. 2 levels is just too much for the current state of AA. WG policy is that they provide fast games, smaller q times and this is why sometimes these happen.
A t8 ship in a t6 match will feel like an unstoppable god, but in a t10 match will be something you can effectively ignore the whole game. The difference should not be more than 1 tier, even after the AA is reworked, imho, even if it increases wait times. However I do feel like this is true for most ships. When you are facing a 2 tier difference in ships you will often be relegated to support duty in order to be effective.
The myth about "infinite" planes. Again this is highly subjective in my opinion. The only times I have enough planes left at the end of the game is when at least half of the entire team made huge mistakes. CV punishes bad game play. It's what it did before, it's what it will do in the future, there is no way to change mechanics so this isn't true.
If you are alone and out of position you will be an easy target and harassed, which will in turn mean CV will have more planes.
I would like to go back to the dodging part. Even if you dodge, you will take damage, and if you run alone for entire game and you dodge you can and will be harassed by the CV entire game, which will be frustrating.
But here is the most important thing. If you at the point decide, you want to leave the game, as most do, and do not try to minimize damage taken you will die.
There is a chance that if a CV chases you for 15 minutes you will eventually die. This is true for any other ship almost. If you are being chased by something with more range and speed than you, you will eventually die.
Dodging might not save you, but this is a team game. If your final outcome is I died, game is bad you wont have a good time. The thing is in, at least 50% of games, most of the winning team will get more xp and credits than even the best on losing team. Winning matters. If the enemy CV spends 15 minutes chasing one ship, you have done more for your team than hiding somewhere and spamming 20,30k worth of damage that a BB repaired, because your own CV can in that case deal a significantly more damage or spot actually valuable targets, or do anything useful.
I understand it does not feel fun, but sometimes this will happen. There are many CV related situations like there where you will be helpless due to bad spawn, match up, or sheer RNG.
It's all about the contribution to the team. If you are sailing a DD and you manage to effective take out a CV for 15 minutes out of the game this is a huge achievement, and only a very BAD CV will spend that much time on you.
Before I left playing DDs essentially felt like playing stealthy unavailable assassins. You could safely torp while nobody could see you picking up kraken after kraken in t5 matches, or get at least 1 kill even in higher ones. Who played this season of clan battles knows what an insane weapon the shimakaze was against defensively positioned teams. US and RU dds felt like a rain of death that nobody could stop. In fact most games without CVs would pretty much be over within the first minute as one team lost their DDs. I feel like a lot of DD only player frustrations comes from the fact this has changed and they want the old way back. I sympathies, but I think both you and I know this is unlikely to happen. Even BBs have radar now, and days of BBs running scared from DDs are gone. DDs are and should be the most fragile class to play. They require SMART playing to survive.
I sincerly hope nobody is offended by what I wrote it is not my intention to either defend or attack CVs, or DDs or any other players. What I would like to is to provide some insight into CV game play to those unfamiliar, and provide tips for understanding the core mechanics of the game. CVs are a part of it, just as much as armor layouts and trajectories of the shells from main batteries.
Do I think things need balancing? Sure. AA and tier changes are needed, and prolly a ton of their stuff. Fighters are absolutely horrendous, I think everyone can agree on this, even though I see at least once per game people straight out leave my fighter zone seconds before an enemy plane attack, although most people leave my smoke when I give them for cover, so… However I feel like that most frustration comes from players refusing to adapt to the changing mechanics.
I am old enough to remember days of Duke and Quake 1 when a guy appeared in tournaments, doing the rocket jump. A mechanic nobody utilized until then (for those who dont know you fire a rocket launcher, or a grenade launcher at your feet, and jump at same time to go up more, and then shoot from the air), he won every tournament he played, because nobody even knew about the thing. The pushback was huge, half the people were amazed, half were horrified by this (completely unreal), and different mechanic. Few years ago it became a standard part of every shooter for a decade or more, games were built around it.
What I am trying to say is, I trully understand those that feel unhappy with this mechanic and how it works, what is realistic is that it is not going to go away, the best you can do for yourself is to try to adapt to it.
On a completely off topic (as the post isn't long enough), how are there people at higher tiers (t10 too) who instant press damage control consumable the moment they catch the first fire, only to burn 2 minutes later from the next 3,4 within minutes), how is this still a thing?
Everything I said here is personal and subjective opinion, and I understand I may be wrong in many of these things.
If anyone actually managed to read the whole thing, thank you, I will be happy to discuss anything I said in the comments.
For the discussion part: Please let me know if you agree/disagree with certain points I've made, add your own.
Another thing I would like to see is some constructive criticism on what can be cone to make the game more enjoyable for those that currently do not enjoy it. (Other than removing a class, or making a mod without the class, which are not realistic options, neither is nerfing a class to the point where it is unusable). Please provide actual suggestions that you feel can realistically be implemented.
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